Imagine you’re a bartender in a restaurant dreaming of working on Wall Street. What do you need to get the job you desire? Is it an Ivy-league education, a prestigious family name, or a resume filled with internships and experience? Or merely leadership and the power of perspective?
On this episode of Level to Power, we’re joined by Evan Daly, a Jersey bartender who built a business in liquor sales, for a discussion on what it really takes to secure the career you crave and dominate your industry.
Apex Level To Power is a podcast that examines the inner workings of human interactions and teaches you how to succeed within your own interpersonal relationships. Change your level, change your life, change the world.
Episode Highlights:
- Introducing Evan Daly
- Why bartending is great training for business sales
- Inspiring and motivating employees
- Tales from behind the bar
- Why attitude and outlook matters more than skill or education
- What do you like to do in your free time?
- Perception and identity
- Playing chess blindfolded
Resources:
- Cocktail (1988 movie)
- Why the West Has Won by Victor Davis Hanson
Visit Level To Power for episode archives and transcripts Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and post a review to empower the podcast
Quotes/Tweets:
“Everybody’s seeing something you are not. Everyone has a different experience”- Mark
“Leaders sometimes feel like they have the burden of thinking of everything. And that’s a lonely place to be”- Mark
“It’s about doing the little things that no one else wants to do. And doing them consistently”- Evan
“You don’t have to sacrifice your life, but you do need to take responsibility for your life”- Mark
“When hiring managers ask what you do in your free time, they’re actually asking what you do in your free time to improve yourself”- Evan
TRANSCRIPT
| Male: | Welcome to APEX Level To Power. The podcast completely dedicated to your self-empowerment. In this episode we talk to Evan Daly. An expert and profession from the liquor bar and hospitality industry. We talk through his perspectives on the inspiring and motivation of employees. The achievement of personal goals, the attitudes and outlooks that helped him to achieve success. Evan’s a type of person who pulls himself up by his bootstraps. We ended up having a great conversation and I hope you enjoy. You change your level, you change your, you change the world, welcome to APEX Level To Power.
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| Mark: | Escape the herd, rise above the pack, this is the APEX Level To Power Podcast. The only place in the web that teaches you to identify and control the invisible strings that dominate all human interaction. We teach sheep to become wolves. A challenge to be sure, but one that we answer and answer with vigor. I am your faithful host Mark Gleason, I welcome you to the program and I invite you to visit our lower corner of the web at Leveltopower.com for more information and to support the broadcast.
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| Male: | Now for an episode from the APEX Level To Power Man on Fire Series. Build a man of fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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| Mark: | We’re [inaudible 00:01:54] to have Evan Daly on the podcast today. Evan you have quite an interesting background.
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| Evan: | That I do.
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| Mark: | Maybe you could share with us besides being a gigantic human being and a wine kind of sewer, some of the other eclectic interests that make up who Evan Daly is.
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| Evan: | Yeah certainly. I have doubled in everything from law enforcement. I have worked in the insurance industry. When I really found my footing was actually when I broke into the hospitality and I started out as a bartender in a tiny closet that the owners like to call a service bar, but I don’t know if you could really call it that. That’s where I first sort of began my journey into the world of beverage alcohol and now I sell it for a living but I spend a lot of time behind the bar, behind the stakes and that was a great thing because it taught me to never really judge a book by its cover. I dealt with a lot of people that you never would think were who they were. Whether it be doctors, lawyers, data architecture, consultants, whatever the case maybe.
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| I made a lot of really good connections and I learned the profitability of networking. I was bartending for several years and I knew that it was a talent and I sort of chased it a way. I didn’t want to be that good at it. I didn’t want to necessarily make a career out of it, but I realized that I didn’t have to necessarily be behind the bar to utilize the skillset that I had acquired. I spent a lot of time reading about beer and reading about cocktails and creating my own and experimenting. When you’re talking about drinking liquor it’s not exactly, it’s sure for most people.
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| I did a lot of experimenting. What I realized is that you can take something that you’re passionate about, and you may just need to take a little bit of time or think outside the box a little bit to realize how it is that you can actually make a living doing those things. What I realized is that there is this whole other side to the hospitality industry and that is the liquor business. There’s a three-tier system set up in the United States as a result of prohibition in order to try to deter organized crime and have a little bit more control over the drug, alcohol. As a result there’s jobs with suppliers and importers and there’s jobs with distributors and then there’s the jobs in the actual hospitality industry or retail side of the business which would be in liquor stores.
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| I spent a lot of time fighting that off, but realized that it was a good thing for me and that I was passionate about and I was good at it. I stopped fighting it and embraced it wholeheartedly and then I pursued one education for a while. I just finished up my wine spirit education trust which is based out of London. I just finished their level III advanced certificate in wine and spirits and I intend on continuing on to level IV which is called Diploma. That’s another two-year long process, and several rigorous tests that are broken into a few units. That’s pretty much my background in a nutshell.
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| Mark: | It just occurred to me that your life basically tracks the movie Cocktail pretty closely to it.
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| Evan: | Me and Tom Cruise have a lot in common.
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| Mark: | You have lots of interest in business. You become a bartender to pay the bills. You heavily recent it, one day you learn, actually I can make money in this industry, and you turn the whole thing around.
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| Evan: | That’s pretty much it, that’s a fair way of assessing it. I doubled in a couple of different things. I went into management in the hospitality industry. Also I did some consulting work which didn’t pan out. Which you and I have talked about and we can certainly address here if you’d like. I realized after fighting it pretty hard, that it all wasn’t a bad thing and that I could make a living doing it and I can enjoy what I do for a living and I do.
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| Mark: | In my misspent youth, I spent a lot of time waitering and bartending as a young person to help pay the bills. I always thought it was a fantastic job, and since then I entered the business world years ago, I’ve had a fair amount of success largely due to my ability to deal with people. Of course the APEX Level To Power Podcast is about the levels of power, the levels of perception and how to deal with people. I have always told everyone that to be a salesman, to be a CEO, to be a stock broker, to be anything, the skillsets that you learn in the restaurant industry as opposed to let’s say retail. Even though retail has some of those elements as well.
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| When you are a bartender, you need to effectively communicate with the CEO at your bar who makes five million dollars a year, with the waitress who’s struggling through nursing school. Who’s trying to get drinks and the underpaid guy from Uruguay working the dishes who may burn down the place if you don’t get him a free plate of nachos. You really, really end up dealing with the entire spectrum of humanity. Only at the DMV do you probably get the range of humanity that you’ll get day in, day out of the bar.
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| Evan: | I wouldn’t likely think that the bartender and the person at the DMV does have a lot in common, but now that you mentioned it, I think you probably deal with a very similar walks of life.
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| Mark: | Well they both probably need a drink when they go home is where I’m going with this.
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| Evan: | Some even while they work.
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| Mark: | Exactly, so the skillset that you acquire to be able to read people and to be able to triage situations working as a bartender, working as a consultant, you have to be able to snap judge the person in a very brief encounters you have a few words, you have a facial expression to go by, to figure out whether you have a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Whether you have somebody who’s scamming you for something for free. Whether your staff member is right or wrong. Whether you customer is right or wrong. The entire human spectrum of interaction is on display in a restaurant bar.
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| Like you said, that also can of course lead you more directly into business which is in the actual alcohol liquor distribution chain which in our state is heavily regulated, heavily controlled and extremely difficult to get into. Kudos to you for getting on that ladder that’s an extremely difficult thing to do.
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| Evan: | Thank you.
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| Mark: | I identified with you quite early on because I saw a guy who was polishing his skillset when it came to people, when it came to interaction with people, and when it came to perfecting the mechanics of the job. Then the mechanics of the job is one piece of it, but then the people management and perception management is some entirely different thing. For instance everything that goes wrong with a guest order is an opportunity to impress that guest.
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| They literally could come and have a fun experience. You come in, their appetizer came on time, their stake came out, cooked like they like it, and they can leave. If they rate your service and rate your restaurant, it can be wherever they’ll rate it. They actually could have something go wrong and leave much happier than when they walked in.
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| Evan: | That’s entirely accurate and I think the reason for that is you’re giving them the opportunity to be impressed with your ability to make a situation better. Your appetizer comes out cold, and they explain to you that the appetizer came out cold, you now have an opportunity to exceed someone’s expectations by how you go about fixing that problem. How much you show them that you actually care. I think in business it’s the exact same way. Some little thing can go wrong. Listen, cold appetizers come out of the kitchen all the time. There’s little things in business that go wrong all the time, but what that allows you to do, is separate yourself from the pack.
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| Separate yourself from the herd, and show them that you are the premier bar and restaurant in that area. The reason for that is because you care about your guest experience more than the next guy does. By making a mistake and then coming out and sort of under-promising, over-delivering in that way, it allows you the opportunity to create a guest relationship that can continue many, many times over.
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| Mark: | Right, because when something comes out burnt for instance and it’s four of us eating and one of our dishes come out burnt, it makes all the difference in the world when somebody either brings it out, or doesn’t bring it out, and say, “Look, I’m sorry. I have to apologize, here are your three dinners. I decided not to bring yours out to you, because I wanted it to be perfect. I did not like the way it looked. I’m having it remade for you, I hope that’s okay.” Now of course you’d rather have your food, but at least that’s far better than you taking something and throwing it in front of me.
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| Evan: | It’s a very close-
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| Mark: | Clearly burnt and expecting or hoping that maybe I just won’t say anything because you’ll disappear for two minutes and maybe I won’t be able to catch you and say, “What the heck is this you just tried to serve me?”
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| Evan: | That is the difference between the places that are ultimately successful for a very long time and the places that have a hard time getting themselves off the ground. Is that just little bit extra, that I like to call the give a shit factor. I’m sorry, I don’t know if cursing is okay, but I like to call it the give a shit factor. It’s like do you give a shit about this person’s experience? If the answer is no, then you’re going to put that burnt piece of stake in front … If the answer is yes, you’re going to say, “I’m going to make sure that this comes out perfect for you the next time around.”
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| Mark: | Your problem is the principal agent problem. Where the principal is the restaurant owner who wants to make sure that everybody has that experience. Of course he needs to rely on agents which are his waiters and waitresses and managers, bartenders to make sure they’re giving that experience. They are not nearly as incentivized as he is to make sure he has returning customers. As a matter of fact, many of them can’t think past the next 5 minutes of-
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| Evan: | I’m going to make my money today, then I go home.
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| Mark: | That’s right. Most of them will get cut early and they complain they’re not making any money. Therefore just like in any kind of business, you’ll have bonuses or incentives or stock options. You’ll have something in every business to try to align the interest of the agents and their actions more in line at least with the principle. How do you … I have worked in restaurants where the owner was so terrible and he’d yell at all the waitresses and he would come in and just use this as a platform to be able to abuse people basically. Everybody would take it and he would yell at them. They’d all node their heads and he’d walk out of the wait stand, and every single waitress one-by-one would grab a handful of silverware and throw it in the garbage.
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| Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and their silverware cost went through the roof one month. Then they installed a magnet over the garbage can lid to catch the silverware because they figured it was being thrown away accidentally, but he continued yelling at people. People would walk over, lift up the lid-
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| Evan: | Continue throwing silverware out.
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| Mark: | Continue throwing silverware out, for months. Now this guy was a raving lunatic a bit. He wasn’t a horrible, horrible human being, but he was somebody who had never learned how to deal with people and he decided he was going to take out his anger issues on the people over whom he had some modicum of control
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| Evan: | I think everybody’s had a boss like that, but I think it’s a lot more common when it comes to restaurant owners, and I don’t really know the answer to that, other than the fact that I think that people that are entrepreneurs are in general more apt to be risk takers. People that are risk takers don’t exactly think the same way that I think the average person does.
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| Mark: | That’s probably true but this guy was the son of an entrepreneur. The father had put the money in and built the place a little bit, and this was the son trying to prove to his father that he could do it.
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| Evan: | That’s better than him not caring and just taking that inheritance and blowing it.
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| Mark: | I think it probably is, I don’t think he had the choice. I’m not sure that was an option. The father was pretty heavily involved and he was a pretty seriously unhappy man as well. My point is though that you have in every business as a manager, as an entrepreneur, as a leader, you have the problem of how do you motivate your troops. How do you keep them motivated, and how do you read them? How do you tell the good ones from the bad ones? Going back to our scenario of you now server can come to your table and make all the difference in service as to how you rate your experience at this restaurant.
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| You’re not there. Your manager is not standing there, the owner is not standing there. There’s a one-on-one interaction occurring. What do you do to make sure your people are doing the right thing for your business?
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| Evan: | I think at the end of the day in this, again this restaurant industry as well as every other kind of industry you can think of, if you treat people right, they’re going to a lot of times do the right thing by you. If they feel as though their opinion is valued, if they feel as though they’re receiving fair compensation for what it is that they’re bringing to the table, to the business, those people a lot of times are going to care more than someone that is disgruntled. I think that everyone can agree on that. I think as a restaurant owner or manager, the thing that is most important for you to do is to manage your people and then everything else will kind of fall into place. What I mean by managing your people is making sure that there opinions are heard.
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| If someone has a opinion about how you can improve service in the restaurant, sitting down with that person for 10 to 15 minutes and hearing what they have to say, you may have already thought of it, it may not be feasible but at least if you give them the satisfaction of being able to voice something and that alone right there shows you that they care at least a little bit more than maybe your average employee, about the success of the business. I think that by giving people the opportunity to be heard, that is going to make them care a little bit more.
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| Mark: | That is a great point. There is … I have two things on that. One is that there is a author called Victor Davis Hanson. He wrote a series of books. He’s a historian, Greek and Roman history. He wrote a series of books about western civilization and one of them was called How the West Has Won. Basically it’s why time and time again when a huge dictatorship, with a huge army was fighting a very, very small rebel of Free states. Persia invaded Greece multiple times. When the Ottoman Empire kept on invading Europe many, many times. When the United States was fighting the Japan in the Pacific. Again and again and again he sites many examples, where a rebel of squabbling free thinking people can outperform in battle a very, very large kind of monolithic army.
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| One of the chief reasons he sites for why the West wins again and again and again, is because some armies have a philosophy in particular dictatorships where you have to follow the command of the leader. There is no talk back, you just simply obey. You can look at battle after battle after battle. Sometime that wins, but as soon as you’re over the horizon and you’re no longer in contact, and the conditions have changed, like in Japan for instance in the Pacific War, they were expected to follow orders. Didn’t matter how suicidal it looked, or how bad it looked. You follow orders or else you could be killed or disciplined. Whereas the Americans, you have an admiral who’s beyond the horizon, he has orders, but he feels pretty free to change them if he thinks he can argue that the best thing to do was the following and this is why.
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| For instance the Greeks used to let the men come propose ideas and weigh in on, “I think we should do this, no I think we should do that. No, I think we should do this, no, I think we should do that.” What ends up happening, is you have the best ideas always percolating to the top. Versus simply top down, no this is what’s going to happen. I think the other important point here is that the army fights stronger when they feel like they’re vested. A Greek soldier fighting because he owns his home and he’s trying to get back to his farm that he’s, because he’s a citizen fighting a slave from Persia, who only is there because they’re at the point of a spear or they’re going to get killed.
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| Well when heavy infantry clashes and you’re both about to die, the slave is more likely to take off. They’re not vested in this outcome. Tying that back then to the restaurant scenario, or any scenario, any business scenario, vesting your people, first of all getting their input as to what they think should be done. You’re letting them have a voice. If you never get a great idea from there. It’s still worthwhile because-
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| Evan: | 100%.
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| Mark: | They’ll feel they’re vested, they’ll feel they’re involved, they feel they have some kind of way of influencing and they’ll take a little more pride when something happens and they go, “Hey that was my idea.” Likely if you do that enough, you will come up with some ideas because everybody is seeing something that you are not. Everybody has a different experience, and they’re going to be there one day and they’re going to see a customer or an incident or a situation, or have an idea that you don’t have. I think entrepreneurs sometimes, leaders sometimes feel like they have the burden of thinking of everything and that’s a very lonely place to be.
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| Evan: | I agree with that 100%.
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| Mark: | I mean, yes you do need to be the leader, but you need to be able to walk amongst the people and set the camp fires and get their feedback.
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| Evan: | If nothing else, it’s important to do that for like we said, just the sole purpose of making your people feel vested. Even if you have no intention going into those conversations, of using anything that comes out of it. The side effects if you want to call it that would be that those people now feel heard and they feel now more invested in whatever it is that you’re trying to get accomplished. As a leader, Bruce Lee said something along the lines of take what is useful, discard what is useless. As a leader, you could hear 100 different recommendations, but one of them could be useful and you just discard the other 99 but you’re still better off having heard all of those recommendations than you were beforehand.
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| Mark: | Right and then let’s flip it around now. Let’s say what is your incentive … This is not your restaurant, you’re working there, what is your incentive to participate? To use your mind and engage?
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| Evan: | Well I think what’s important is seeing the [inaudible 00:19:51], and being able to understand that if you have any intention of having this be a long-term situation for you, where this is going to be how you’re going to make your living for some period of time, you’re going to want to have people come back. The only way that they’re going to continue to come back is if they feel they’re having a good experience and something that’s unique that they can’t get somewhere else. Even if they can’t get it somewhere else, they want to come see you because you add value to that experience that maybe another person can’t because you are unique and you are offering something that no one else is, and that’s your personality and the fact that you care about their experience.
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| Mark: | Yeah and even if another restaurateur is having dinner and says that’s a great bartender, I wonder if he can come work for me.
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| Evan: | It’s happened.
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| Mark: | Yeah, exactly.
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| Evan: | It’s happened to me.
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| Mark: | Or somebody who’s from a totally different business. Says, “Hey, this is a really good guy, he’s a smart guy,” that’s how we met. We met in some totally different context where you were working behind a bar, but you were obviously a cut above of most bartenders that you would see. Simply because of the matter and the seriousness in which you were approaching the problems that were in front of you. Both personality-wise and logistics and mechanics-wise, now that I have a background in bartending, so I do have an eye for-
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| Evan: | You recognize the subtle things that other people might miss.
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| Mark: | Yes exactly. Two rules of thumb though which somebody had once told me which always served me well in the restaurant business. That is they say when they were a manager, and they were interviewing for a waitress at the front door, they would say, “Great, follow me,” and they would turn on their heel without looking back and they would walk as fast as possible to the furthest table in the restaurant. Boom, as fast as they could. When they turn back around, and that waitress is right behind them, they were 95% on the way to getting a job. If they were lollygagging somewhere lost in the chairs and tables and they weren’t walking very first, then chances were they were not getting the job-
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| Evan: | There’s that fifth gear that you have to be able to get into and it’s almost instinctual in most people that are good at it.
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| Mark: | That’s right and for our bartender, is equally important to have fast hands. If you had bills and they’re having a conversation, and have fast hands. Always doing something, always doing something, always going something. Somebody who takes a glass and takes some ice and puts it in.
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| Evan: | They pour the bottle and then they use the soda gun and they don’t do it the same time, it bothers me probably more than it bothers the person waiting on the drink.
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| Mark: | It definitely bothers the fellow bartenders a lot more because you know that by the end of the night you’re doing literally twice as much work.
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| Evan: | I went to war when I bartended, and I’m serious. There were times where you would be busy. You would have two or three people deep and when I wasn’t in charge of making the decision about who is that I got to work behind the bar with, there were plenty of times where I mean, if we had a … What do they call it? Pedometers where they keep track of your steps per minute. If I had one of those versus some of the other bartenders, I really would have been curious to know how many more miles I tracked behind a single bar in one night compared to some of these people. It’s just one of those things where good bartenders like I said, I find that it’s almost instinctual, but I think it has something to do with worth ethic as well.
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| There would be times at the end of the night that I had broken a sweat. There would be blood, sweat and tears behind that bar and at the end of the night everyone makes the same amount of money which can be very, very frustrating as it happens consistently. It’s not something that you can just go to work, and I’m going to make a couple of drinks. I’ll have a couple of conversations. If you’re in a busy establishment, you’re going to work. You’re going to burn some calories and you’re going to be multitasking the entire time. It’s the epitome of multitasking. You’re almost like when you think about it, depending on what kind of cocktails you’re making.
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| You’re almost the chef and the server and the manager, all in one person, because the managers aren’t behind the bar dealing with people, you’re dealing with people. If there’s a problem you have to address it. You can’t necessarily go get someone and have them have that kind of conversation. You have to take it upon yourself to get the job done. You’re a chef in the way that you’re creating cocktails. If I’m creating for Gotham when I was a manager and a bartender there, we had the Smoked Baked Apple Manhattan that we used to make and it literally requires you to burn, I believe it was oak that we used. Little oak chips-
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| Mark: | That’s fun.
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| Evan: | Using a smoking, and you capture the smoke in the shaker and we had baked apple bitters and cinnamon sugar, and wood for reserved bourbon and it was this huge process. It took probably not less than four and a half minutes and that’s if you were hauling ass to get this drink from being ordered to in front of the guest. I can talk to chefs all day along about all the toils and the different things that go into creating a wonderful dish and the presentation involved, and how it’s not just throwing something in a frying pan and putting it on a plate.
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| When you have that level of creativity behind the bar in addition to the people factor. Which is dealing with people is time consuming at times because some people just like to talk-
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| Mark: | Stressful.
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| Evan: | Stressful and there’s just so many different things that are going on all at the same time. To me bartending taught me so much but I think the one thing that it did teach me to do is just be able to get things done while being distracted.
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| Mark: | Definitely, it is definitely a multitasking environment. I think it’s interesting for our listeners. I know you feel because we always feel that we’re not moving fast enough, but you entered this field, you decide, “Hey, I’ll do this for a while, you quickly rise to role of bartender and the only reason people do that is because the manager feels that this is somebody I want interacting with even more customers. A waiter is going to talk to 30 of my customers tonight, my bartender is going to talk to 300 of my customers tonight. I got to make sure that the people I put behind the bar have a certain quality of experience that I’m confident they can deliver.
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| Then you get promoted through not one place but several places who you get offers to help manage. You accept that management role along with the bartending role, and then you accept to go into the liquor distribution industry which is the flipside. These are the people who normally would come to your bar, take orders, deliver alcohol to you, and now you’re going to go into that industry and work your way up there. That’s not easy in our state to do, to get into the industry. You had to be kind of a go-getter who’s willing to put in your dues to be able … It’s a cartel basically, a legal cartel in our state. Therefore that’s very, very difficult.
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| I like to get your thoughts on why that is. I know you’re a go-getter and I know you tend to go after things, but people struggle with that, and I’m sure there are people in life who look at you, who were once working alongside you as your peer. Who at some point turned around and said, “Look at Evan, he’s just lucky somehow. I wonder how he fell into that.” There’s people who are more resentful of other people’s success than they all are admiring it like, “Wow, how did he do that, I’d like to be able to do that myself.” Instead they’re like, “That guy he must know somebody, that’s how he got that role. I had he got promoted, now he’s with that thing over there. He probably just fell into that.”
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| I’d like to understand what your philosophy is, how you establish credibility with your management. How you establish credibility with the people that you are working with and show that you have a level of caring and dedication and authenticity to the task at hand, that kind of wins people over. I’d like to set the table with one example that I give to people, when they’re wondering why they can’t get promoted in their job. The example I give is that you’re a general, and you’re walking along the frontlines and you come across a soldier, and they’re a great soldier, and they’re polishing their gun, and they’re doing everything that a soldier is supposed to do.
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| They gave you a salute and say your hello and you keep on walking. You come to another soldier and that soldier is not quite as polished and maybe not quite as good with the gun, but this soldier says, “General, just want to let you know, we’re at maneuvers, I saw the enemy. They moved not from that hilltop to that hilltop, so they’re in a slightly different position now. I don’t know whether that’s important to you or not, but I just want to let you know that that’s going on.” You say, “Okay, thank you very much.” You go back to your command tent and they say, “We lost an officer, we need a new lieutenant, we got to promote somebody.” Well the question is who are you going to promote?
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| The guy who is a great soldier, because he’s doing fantastic where he is, because he has mastered the mechanics solely of soldiering, or the guy who’s a pretty good soldier, but he has demonstrated a willingness and a capacity to see things through your eyes? In other words, he’s already trying to think like a general? He’s already trying to say, “This maybe something the general will care about?” Well it’s me, I would like to keep my perfect soldier soldiering and I would like to take the second person and build on his attitude to look at things through my eyes and the things that I care about. I promote that soldier. Here you have yourself, you try to be both. You try to be the good soldier, who’s delivering on all the mechanics.
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| I’ll compete and know the job inside and out, but what I immediately noticed about you was that you are trying to think beyond the scope of your job. You’re trying to think about, “This is not my restaurant, I just work here, but how do we build our sales? What is the nature of sales? What is the nature of the restaurant experience? How can I be better at my job so I can get that better experience? Maybe I should learn more about food. Maybe I should learn more about wine. Maybe we should do the following things so that these things will work better. Maybe we can arrange, maybe we could change the way we’re doing things, so this whole operation might work better. You are already looking beyond the scope of things.
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| You aren’t just coming in with your head down, doing your bartending task and going home, and I‘m assigned to be here, I’m working here tonight. I’ll make my money, I’ll go home, I’m not going to contribute to the metagame going on here, you can’t help yourself. You just can’t help yourself, nor can I. to look at that metagame and try to figure out how you fit within it, how you can improve your situation in it, how you can improve everybody’s situation in it really. That I think is what management, it is what owners look for and identify if I owned a business, and I’ve had a person who cared about the issues I care about as much as I do, then that person is worth your weight in gold.
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| That does not require a special certification, it does not require an education, it doesn’t require having a rich family member with political connections. It doesn’t require anything at all whatsoever, except for the right attitude and the right perspective. I will hire that guy or that girl over somebody who has a better background but a bad attitude any day of the week.
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| Evan: | There are a lot of things that require no skill. Punctuality, showing up on time is going to be exactly what I just said. Showing up on time. Working hard and I don’t mean just like in the sense, “Oh, yeah I put in 50 hours this week.” I mean working, working really, really hard.
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| Mark: | Adding value.
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| Evan: | Adding value, having a positive constructive approach to doing everything that is that you do. Trying to improve every single day in some sort of incremental fashion. Not comparing yourself to everybody else but just trying to be better today than you personally were yesterday. None of that requires skill, none of that requires an education; it just requires you to have the right attitude and the right approach to business and to anything in life. The person that goes to the gym and they’re 400 pounds and they lose 5 pound in the first two weeks that they are going to the gym and change nothing else but the fact that they have developed a habit of walking on the treadmill for 20 minutes a day.
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| That person is making incremental change and you might see that person in two years and they might be half the person that they were today, two years from now. That change isn’t going to happen overnight, that change is going to be incremental, but it’s about consistency and it’s about that slight edge that doing those little thing that none else wants to do and doing them consistently. I’ve always had an approach to everything, I want to be a jerk of all trades and I don’t want to be a master or none, I want to be a master of all of them. I want to learn everything I can about everything that is relevant o anything that I’m interested.
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| For instance, with liquor and wine, I knew that one of the things that I was lacking was a little bit of wine knowledge, just because I hadn’t had a whole lot of experience as far as selling it, taking about it, drinking it just wasn’t my beverage of choice. When I got into the distribution side of my business, I took it upon myself to go out of my way to not only educate myself about the basics, but to get an intermediate certification and an advance certification all within about nine months of each other.
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| Mark: | What you are you are getting, nobody was making you do it?
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| Evan: | No. No one made me do, in fact I paid it, my company wouldn’t even pay for it for me.
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| Mark: | A magic day didn’t happen where somebody came and said, “I know Evan, why don’t I pay for you to get some certification so that you can learn more about this industry because I see some potential here?” They could have, but they didn’t. You were the right candidate because you decided to go out and get yourself certified in those things because you were trying to figure out for a long time, how does one add value here? I learn more about food, I learn more about drinks.
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| The other person is to teach me how to do this or that, at some point you maxed out on that knowledge, where people ran out of things to teach you, now you were the guy, you were the senior guy who taught other people. Then where you do well, there is always another expert somewhere, so then you go get your certifications. Money at your pocket, you can’t go out drinking beer every single night with your business, only most of the nights and some of the Right …
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| Evan: | Many of the nights.
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| Mark: | Many of the nights.
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| Evan: | That’s right, and that’s the point, you got to sacrifice your life, but you do need to take responsibility for your life.
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| Mark: | No one is going to hand anything to you, you have to earn everything. There is something actually that you said to me and it’s stuck with me and I remember it, you were sitting down in a bar having something in which we normally do and you said something along the lines of “If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.” That’s how I feel about there always being another expert, there always being someone else I can learn from. I don’t want to be the smartest person in any room, I don’t want to be the strongest, I don’t want to be the fastest, I don’t want to be any of that. I always want someone to be better than me, because that’s going to show me what I’m capable of maybe one day if I work really, really hard, I can achieve that. If I have already reached the epitome of what there is to accomplish, then the motivation to get better no longer exists.
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| Evan: | Absolutely, it’s about wanting yourself to be better for yourself. Look, I’m a self motivated guy in general, I have my interest which I enthusiastically pursue because I’m interested in them, not for any other reason, but they may or may not have market value, but they are my interest which I enjoy quite a bit. I feel like I’m less prone to social pressure than other people that I have seen, but I will never forget when I was in my 20’s, I was going to go to a Wall Street job for an interview. It’s very difficult once you are in the bartending industry to go to an office job, because the amount of money you can make, entry level job even at Wall Street is like 50 grand before taxes, you are walking with like 35.
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| Mark: | If you are lucky.
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| Evan: | Bartending, I was making at least 80 grand cash at the time. I was working 7 days a week.
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| Mark: | It’s good money.
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| Evan: | Well, 80 to 100 something-
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| Mark: | That’s what I was making by the time I finished up Hefley.
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| Evan: | In our area we have a beach, we have a Jersey Shore where we live and if you can guess, we gig there during summer times; you just make money hand over face. I know people who would just work four months in the summer and take the rest of the year off.
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| Mark: | I know many of the same people.
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| Evan: | I was making a really good money cash, and that’s really hard to walk away from. You have to take a step back in order to be able-
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| Mark: | It’s not even just the money; it’s the other packages of the job as well. That’s a fun industry, you are meeting people constantly, you are around beautiful people all the time. Think of most bartenders you see, they are not unattractive, they have personalities. It’s hard to walk away from an environment like that when you are making more money than most people that you know. When you are working around people that are fun to be around, that are attractive, you are meeting all sorts of people and you are networking. It depends on how you approach your networking and whether you want to actually derive any value out of that. You are meeting people all the time; you are getting to experience things.
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| It’s very, very hard to say, “All right, well, not I’m going to go to Wall Street and I’m going to sit in a cubicle for 60 hours a week and I’m going to make less than half of what I’m right now. Oh by the way, I don’t get to drink every Friday and Saturday night and hang out with my friends and make money to do so.”
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| Evan: | I was in that industry, I was the pick of that industry, I was making a lot of money in cash, I was having great time. I went to an interview for a job on Wall Street, and I was basically the smartest guys I knew at the time. Meaning what you said, I was in a room of people and said, “I am a go-getter, I am more active, I am self-motivated than everybody in my circle, therefore I had to do fantastic on this interview. I remember going in to this interview room, and sitting down, just 100% sure I had landed this thing.
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| I basically I said, “Okay, so I’m going to get this job and it was on the upper end of entry level. It was 70 or 80,000 and it was three ranks up on the ladder. I get there and as a hobby for instance I studied some other languages, I had a pretty good … Intellectually I was quite prepared to throw my intellectual brain pan on the counter with everybody else’s. We are in the interview, it’s like one of those movies where the Miles were talking about the gig before they go in. Everybody starts talking about … Because they all know each other.
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| Mark: | They’ve been there 100 times; they are seeing the same faces over and over again.
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| Evan: | One guy goes, “Hey, his was Tokyo?” “Tokyo was great.” “Did you learn any Japanese?” I was like,” I’m semi-fluent, but I only took two years of lesson, but my German is even better.” “Your German is better?” “Yeah, while I was there, I met a girl, we getting marriage, she’s German, so I’m speaking fluent German now, but my Japanese is whatever.” The next guy goes, “Well, look, met a Chinese? I’m fluent in that now, but I still feel like I could do the following things.” The other guys says, “Well look, I didn’t travel anywhere, I didn’t learn the language, but I’ve done every single job on the stock trading floor from the guy who runs the tickets, to the background to operations and now I’m making the move to be an analyst.”
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| Then they are not even asking me a question thank goodness, because my sugar plums that were dancing in my head as to what an attractive candidate I was for this job were just demolished.
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| Mark: | You are now sitting in a room of people that have all sorts of qualifications you weren’t anticipating?
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| Evan: | Exactly, I’m sitting in a room full of people who are certainly the same bracket of intelligence that I am and or as motivated about as I am, and I’ve pursued that over a period of time. It’s not as simple now as “Okay, I got a room full of four people, but Mark seems like the brightest guy.” I now have a room full of four people where Mark is one of the series of bright guys, what has he done with that? It is a totally legitimate question for an employer to ask. How have you been spending you time? Clearly you are a smart guy, I can tell that, I’m talking to you. How have you applied this in any way in particular to making an employer successful?
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| The question when a hiring manager is as asking you what do you do in your free time, they don’t care that you like golf, they don’t care that you work out, they don’t care that you have a dog. They don’t care about your family. What they are actually asking is what are you doing in your free time to improve yourself, and if your answer does not include “I read a lot, like I study this, I do all of these things that are related, or maybe not related to work, but it’s about improving myself.” If your answer isn’t that, you failed. At least that question.
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| Mark: | That’s right, if it was like, “Well, ever since marijuana is legal, I’ve been doing a lot of marijuana. If that’s your answer …”
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| Evan: | I’ve been learning about all the different strains of incredible hulk and Frankenstein. Regulationally, it’s mostly about marijuana, that would be the wrong answer what you are saying? Unless, it is a marijuana dispensary.
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| Mark: | In California that’s going to be a booming business, if it’s not already, but …
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| Evan: | It has been for about 50 years.
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| Mark: | It’s going to continue to grow I can promise you.
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| Evan: | We are only going to start taxing it now, that’s only difference really. I think it’s very important what you said was “If you are the smartest person in the room, that you are in the wrong room,” because at some point, if you advancing all the time, you will outgrow your situation. You will be the big fish in the small pond. Once that happens, enjoy it for a day and then set your sight on something bigger, because when you are wondering why you plateaued, you are wondering why you stagnated, that’s why, because you are not seeking out new challenging situations for yourself. That honestly comes across when someone is at an interview with you and they are asking you, “Hey, what is it that you like to or what do you do in your spare time or what are your plans for the future?”
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| You can tell somebody who is simply content to do whatever it is that they are doing or wants to do bigger things. Either are fun is it makes you happy, but don’t be resentful then when you don’t get promoted. For instance, I came up in Wall Street as a programmer, as a coder and that’s the field that I ended up settling into. I like the fact that you could deliver something and prove imperatively that it was superior to the person next to you, almost like the bartender where if you had a predominant you could prove that were twice as fast as everybody else.
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| Mark: | The filming.
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| Evan: | Fit bit they would have changed my whole outlook.
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| Mark: | Fit bit would have changed the whole industry, in fact we are going to figure out a way to use fit bit in the bar industry, we can do it. Some sort of payment structure base on how many steps you took that night.
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| Evan: | Well, maybe they should pay you because of all the exercise they are getting, admit, there is a model there that works. I worked my way up programming from junior to midlevel to senior and I tried to be the best. I was catching up to people who went to school for coding. They went to school for computer science, I had not. I went to school for economics. My wife, who came from another country with a very rigid education system, she had to start off in mathematical junior high school, then mathematical high school and then computer science, college and then grad school, limited number of slots, highly competitive, you had to compete, this is Europe and you cannot change. It’s not you could be 24 and decides, “I think I’ll be a doctor.”
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| Mark: | It’s decided for you.
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| Evan: | Right, if you didn’t get on that track early, there is only a certain number of spots in med school and they are going to people who went to premed and they are all going to people who went to med high school and they are all going to business track. It’s not like America where you can just jump into, “I think I would be a nuclear physicist and just jump into something else, which I think by the way makes America great, because it lets people who actually are good at things … Like Einstein who is a patent clerk actually make his way over to being a physicist, which because Germany had enough of an open system where he could migrate there, which makes a lot of sense.
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| I’m jumping into programming, coding, because I love it. I love the economics that are going on Wall Street, but I like the people who are making it happen. I’m looking at trading teams, I thought I wanted to be a broker, I thought I wanted to be an analyst. What I realized was that’s a boring stuff for me, that being the people who are writing the algorithms and helping to write the algorithms and helping to write the computer code to make things happen and to be more efficient and make money was exciting. I want to get very, very good mechanics to that job, so I threw myself into coding to the point where I felt like I had a large amount of expertise. At some point I drove myself to being a manager of a programming team which is what I thought that I wanted. I thought then you could have the power to do the right thing and have fun. What I learned was that’s not what I liked to do, that yes, I can manage-
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| Mark: | I don’t know why I was expecting a different answer.
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| Evan: | Like surprises you sometimes …
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| Mark: | I thought you were going to start talking about the people above you and how you didn’t have the flexibility that you thought-
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| Evan: | Well that’s true, that’s absolutely what happened. Was that I thought as you rose in organization, people got smarter, and that as I went up and up and up is the ratified area, people get smarter and smarter and smarter, where I’m dealing with very, very smart people. What I learned is that’s not really true, that in some cases the opposite is true.
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| Mark: | Often time
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| Evan: | That when you are work your way up … I work my way up, I’m now a manager of the team. I have other more infuriating constraints, because I have upper management above me who is not brighter than I am, they are not smarter than I am, they don’t see as much and they are making horrible decisions, and that’s because they have management over them doing the same thing. Therefore, it’s about the same mix of very, very bright people and very, very useless people at every level of the organization. It’s like one in 10 rule or two in 10 or four in 10. Where 80% of the company are just punching the clock, just dragging themselves through the day and 20% are actually trying to get the job done and drive the entire company forward.
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| Mark: | The 80:20 rule applies to everything that is unbelievable, you can see it everywhere.
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| Evan: | What I enjoyed actually was going back to be a coder. I found the actual responsibility for me, the role that I had just wasn’t worth it for the salary I was having. What I did see though, was that if I was going to have the necessary latitude and bandwidth to do the things that I knew to be the right things, I was going to have to be in business for myself. I was going have to have some kind of situation where I could make the difference, because if I’m working for these guys, accepting the weak assumptions of lesser immortals, then even if I see better ways of doing things that I know to be true, I am unable to do it. It’s not my capital, it’s not my team, it’s not my salaries that I’m paying people, therefore I am boxed in.
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| As my confidence grew that they were doing the wrong things and I could see a different way which I thought was the right things, that’s when I realized, I need to be in my own company. Where I control it, yes, fist or famine, I could fail, but I’m going to put my money on me and try to figure out how I can merge a team now that I own, that I control, that I direct. That’s how I got to where I decided to push up on my own, start my own company and ended up doing quite well.
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| Mark: | Why do you think it is that a person that gets paid what some of these executives of some of these major companies get paid. Why do you think it is that they can’t seem to, even if they have someone just like you working for them on salary, in-house? Saying all the same things that you now as a consultant, as an outside company say? Why do you think it is that they can’t hear that logic when it’s coming from someone that’s below them, is it an ego thing? What’s the psychology behind that?
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| Evan: | This is an excellent question because this goes right back to the APEX Level to Power. The APEX Level, let’s just review for our listeners. Level one is where somebody is trapped into one way of looking at the world, their own way. They experience reality in a sensory way and they only see one way of looking at the world which is theirs. Therefore, other perspectives, other paradigms don’t really exist when they are in that mode. We all have fallen into that mode, usually when we’ve been emotionally triggered. Certain people who fail to resolve their emotional conflict live there. They live there all the time. These are the people for instance who might feel like victims all the time, like the world is just happening to them, versus they have some advocacy over the world and they can impact the world.
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| Level two is the ability to see multiple paradigms, you see yours and you see somebody else’s and you see how they are looking at the situation and you see a third one and how they are looking at the situation. When you are at level 2, you are at least aware that there are other ways of looking at the world, which are at least equally valid. They may not result in the best result that you are looking for, but certainly your view of the world is valid for me to consider, even if I disagree with it, because at the end of the day, there are some objective reality that exist beyond me or you, that I’m seeing a piece of through my rose-colored glass objective filter as are you.
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| If you are at level two, it has nothing to do with intelligence, simply is acknowledging that that other people have valid ways of looking at the world. Then I think you are far more ready, not always, but far more ready to accept when somebody comes with a different view of the world, because at least you are acknowledging they exist. If you are a three which is somebody who can see many, many levels simultaneously, then all you want is input all the time. You crave feedback, you crave data, you crave perspective, you crave people telling you “I’m only a bass boy, I notice there was a slight drop in business, or I notice I’m going to through more pairs of shoes than I used to because I’m running a lot round a lot more.” Any insight, no matter how small at level three, you just crave it because you are trying to put together that big mosaic in your mind of what’s happening and how you can influence events.
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| To me, it becomes down to a level one, level two, level three, in there you have people that have emotional blocks. We all bring ourselves to the game. Anybody who has as emotional trigger … Poker is an excellent example, if we are playing poker and I can provoke you in some way to get you mad at me, you are going to stop trying to think “What are his cards?” You are going to start thinking, “I just want to bit this guy. I just want to pull a lucky card and bit this guy because he is so annoying to me.” This explains why I’m so good at cards.
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| Mark: | My face has that effect on some people.
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| Evan: | I was going to say when it comes to provoking people to hate me and annoy them, I found a natural talent. Anyway, I think that there is a lot of ego involved in that which I haven’t even mentioned. That’s because I don’t think that ego is a single most important factor, I think perspective is, because you can have a fantastically big ego as a CEO for instance, bigger than life CEO …
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| Mark: | I think you have to.
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| Evan: | Who still realizes the value of talking to the troupes around the camp fire, who going back and realizing it does not diminish you to get inside and advice. The only reason you would be afraid of that is because you feel a bit of drift. If you are level one by the ways, if I’m level one and I’m experiencing reality and then I talk to you for a while and you shift my reality and turn me on some of the things that I cared about my priorities, and I go back away to my original group of handlers they go, “What are you doing man?” They turn me back. Well, I’ve only experienced one reality that entire time, I sort often one, I’m in the cult, more like family let’s say. I go to the cult; the cult shifts all of my perceptions. I’m not in that mode of going “Okay, what are they doing to me, what’s his motivation to do this to me?”
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| I’m just absorbing it as it happens. I’m at level one. Then when I go back to my parents and they are trying to unwind all of that. I shift back then to my old way of thinking, but I haven’t actually ever stood in multiple places to understand the perspectives of what happened. People who are like that are fearful of opinion, they are fearful because they don’t want to be swayed. Even when they are miserable and unhappy, they don’t want to be swayed, because we tend to feel like how we are and how we look at the world is us, and that is our identity. It’s not, but we feel like it is. When I try to change your point of view on something, you fight, saying, “No, no, this is me. This is me.”
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| I’m trying to get you to change you habit, let’s say to go to the gym every day, I’m trying to get you to change some habit and even when you voice, “Yes I want to do this thing,” your identity is fighting like the dickens not to change. By the way, everybody you know is fighting like dickens for you not to change because their identity is somehow pegged to you. You see your friends who are going on a diet and all you get is grief from everybody. Me included, I go, “I want my friends to succeed in life, I want them to do well, but we go out and we’ve gone from eating burgers every single day to the eat salad or they going to get mocked by me because they just changed over to a salad relentlessly, until it takes four or five times of them doing it and then we move on.
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| No way would I consciously try to impede my friend from eating healthier, what I do is I look at that and I say, “What does this mean for me? He changed over to a salad, I probably should be having a salad too, that makes me feel bad, how dare he make me feel bad? Not to mention I’m a bit threatened because I like him just the way he is, he is changing, what does this mean, does this mean that we no longer go to lunch together because we only to a place with salads? All of these stuff rattles through your head and you come out and lock you buddy. A lot of that is going on. You have a lot of people who are in your head and you have these level twos I want to point out who can run a company of level ones.
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| One of the reasons I stumbled across this whole level way of looking at the world was because I could not understand why very, very smart people were somehow being run by people who were less intelligent. I started off saying intelligence is all, the smarter you are, the better you are going to do, the further you are going to go in life, that’s just what it is. What I learned is that it’s totally not true. That many, many times you have a person who I’ll say has a lower IQ demonstrably with 15 people working for him. Who are all high IQ engineers, all of them IT, the all make a million dollars, he makes a billion dollars.
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| Time and time again in my industry, my software industry, you meet a team of people who are launching a product or getting sold to larger company and making a ton of money and I meet the engineer who is a brilliant guy, he holds three degrees, he went to MIT and two other places and you meet him and go “Okay, this is the guy, you find out he owns 5% of the company. The other guy with no background in that, not even particularly, deeply intellectual for more like Intel, very, very savvy. He owns 90% of the company, he somehow motivated a bunch of very bright people to work for him and built him something that he owns a majority stake in and now he’s making a lot of money.
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| This was a phenomenon I saw again and again and again and I just said, “I don’t understand. I don’t understand how you have these managers who basically seem incompetent, but they outmaneuvering for promotion, so very, very intelligent people.” I struggle with that, I struggle with what is going on here and that is where when I stumbled across this idea that there are all these levels independent of intelligence. That if you are a high IQ level one who sees your way of looking at the world only and there is a lower IQ level two who sees his way of looking at the world and your way looking at the world and the third and humendrous way of looking at the world, that he will be able to outmaneuver you and play the game much better than you and at much better value than you, certainly be better off as politics and is like you are playing chess blindfolded.
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| Occasionally you do have somebody who is smart enough; they can win a chess blindfolded. That is to handicap yourself wildly and unnecessarily. That is where my fascination with this whole idea of perceptions began to come in. I think an excellent example of that, because we all by the way, we all crush. We go from … To me life is about keeping myself at level two and level three and not crush in level one which we always do.
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| Mark: | The reason for that is you are having an emotional response to something, something is changing in your environment and you are reacting to that as opposed to staying in control and being able to you and I discuss, see the forest and the trees, but there is something that’s going to happen. Like we’d said, everybody has those triggers, whatever those triggers might be, but something is going to happen and is going to take you off and you are going to regress, for even a few seconds, a couple of minutes.
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| Evan: | That’s right, and poker is a great example of that. If I can get you at the poker table to go one what they call emotional tilt, where you are no longer thinking about the game or the meta game, but I started mocking you. When you are playing poker, you are playing by the odds and you can make a good play, but you may go on a bad one offense. If I start mocking you for being a terrible player and you have some emotional triggers over that, you don’t like people mocking you or making fun of you or you are self-conscious whether or not you are doing the right thing. You already have some doubts whether or not you should be using your rent money to play poker, you will get emotional and outraged and then now you are going to play terrible poker. Terrible, terrible.
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| This is what you always do, when I get you in a sale situation and I’m trying to put you on some emotional tilt toward positive or negative, the example I give is I explain to you how if you buy this BMW, how women are going to look at you, how men are going to look at you. What a man of prestige you will be. Imagine yourself, picture yourself in this car, how people will look at you, is a powerful one to evoke if somebody is pleasure-centered. You are not thinking anymore about the payment, you are now thinking emotionally, you have crushed down level one of one way of thinking of the world which is the one I painted for you and is because I tapped into some preexisting emotion.
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| If you were already well-centered on that kind of stuff and I did the same thing, you will be like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, what’s the price?” Let’s negotiate. Instead, I’ve tapped into some latent emotional energy like judo. It’s a lot harder for me in Judo if you are a stationary to push you into motion and the direct you somewhere. It’s far easier if you are already in motion, something can redirect it. Your emotion triggers are emotional energy which are going to get released and you are not in control of it, which is why they are so dangerous and why they are so damaging to you.
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| I also can do that on the bad side. I can trigger some negative emotions from my purposes by saying “And by the way if it isn’t your high school reunion coming up, you have the terrible bitten up 10-year-old car, can you imagine yourself. Imagine yourself pulling in a parking lot to your high school reunion in that. Imagine running into somebody, your old girlfriend from high school and she sees you in that car.”
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| Mark: | My high school reunion is actually coming up, thank you for reminding me how old I’m getting, I appreciate that. I’m staring at 30 and I don’t like what I see.
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| Evan: | Thank you so much for calling on the program we really appreciate it.
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| Mark: | Thanks for having me, I appreciate.
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| Evan: | We’d like to have you back on to talk more about maybe some of the specifics around the things you are struggling with in business, the things you are struggling working with the corporate ladder. Challenges you are overcoming on a daily weekly basis. You now have moved into a role where you are now on the other side, like I said part of the eagle empire. You are not part of those structures, the liquor companies who now are selling to the bars. All of your experience and knowledge that you gain working in bars are now helping you understand the mindset of people.
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| However, you walk in, you haven’t seen the person in a month, it’s brand new face, you’ve never talked to them before, what do you therefore or what do they therefore, what’s your agenda, how can you help them do their business better? I know that you have other accounts big wholesale, stores that also purchase your liquor and alcohol. What are the trials with that, what things are that overcome, is there positioning in the store, is there the marketing of things, is how you stack it matter.
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| Are there major personality types that you hate that you have to swallow your pride and somehow figure out a way to work with? All those trials and tribulations I think would be very interesting, if you could suffer for your art a bit.
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| Evan: | I’d be more than happy to.
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| Mark: | Then come back and share with us so we can all learn from it.
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| Evan: | That’s be great.
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| Mark: | That’s be great. Thank you so much.
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| Evan: | Of course thank you.
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| Mark: | Change you level, change your life, change the world, welcome to APEX Level to Power.
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| Male: | This has been the APEX Level to Power podcast with your host Mark Gleason, the podcast where you opinion changes but you still get to feel right.
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| Male: | The one ability we can not give ourselves is credibility. You have give that unto us. Please like, subscribe or write a review. Change you level, change your life, and you can change the world. Welcome to APEX Level to Power.
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